Play-In: John Donne vs. T.S. Eliot

February 2, 2013
Tim Schenck

Welcome to the fourth and final Play-In match of Lent Madness 2013. In the previous Play-Ins, Gregory the Great defeated Gregory of Nyssa; Thomas Tallis beat John Merbecke; and Samuel Seabury sent George Berkeley to the showers.

Today we have the Great Poetry Slam between John Donne and T.S. Eliot with the winner heading to the official bracket to face Agnes of Rome in the First Round. The loser will, presumably, sit in solitude and write self-loathing verses of poetry.

With the conclusion of today's match-up, the 32-saint 2013 Lent Madness bracket will be complete. On Monday morning, we'll return to Celebrity Blogger Week (which is rapidly turning into Celebrity Blogger Week-and-a-Half).

Don't forget Lent Madness 2013 officially kicks off on "Ash Thursday," February 14th, with a First Round match-up between Jonathan Daniels and Macrina the Younger. If you're looking to organize Lent Madness at your parish, click here for tips on how to do so. If you'd like to know when your favorite saint is set to do battle make sure to check out the Calendar of Match-Ups. And, finally, don't forget to "like" us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. See you in Lent!

donne 3John Donne

10. Was the first Anglican hipster. He attended both Oxford and Cambridge and the Lincoln Inn (where lawyers trained in Elizabethan England), and managed not to get any academic degrees. He traveled to Europe, especially Spain, and partied and wrote poetry.  He womanized, danced with ladies in courts all over Europe, lived off the wealth of patrons, and wrote poetry. He became spiritual but not religious...and wrote poetry. His poetry was ground-breaking to literature of the day with its twisted and distorted images and ideas that connected seemingly unrelated things together like a flea and sex. Without Donne, T.S. Eliot would have had no foundation to begin writing his poetry.

9. He eventually fell backwards into a real job by landing a gig as the private secretary to one of the highest officials in the queen’s court. His intelligence and charm opened doors, and he even scored a seat in Elizabeth’s last Parliament. Then he ruined it all for love. Yes, ladies, swoon-like-a-Jane-Austen-novel love. He secretly married Ann More, and her father and John’s employer totally opposed the match (I mean, Donne wasn’t exactly Mr. Elizabethan England Bachelor of the Year). Yet they married. Donne got sacked and landed in prison...along with the priest who married them (for LOVE - remember this!). He was eventually released from prison, and he and Ann had twelve children and were by all accounts happily married until her death.

8. He wrote - let’s just say it - sleazy, erotic, classy poetry that we read in English classed to this day. His poems covered topics like trying to have sex with every girl in sight to exploring his lover’s body as an explorer discovers part of America. And don’t forget The Flea, where he tries to convince his girlfriend to have sex with him. He rarely had these poems published, but allowed them to be widely circulated among his friends and patrons of his poetry. And, we assume, some of his lady friends.

7. And he wrote poems that spoke to the complexities of human nature and faith...that we read in English classes and hear in church sermons to this day. He gave English language the phrase, “No man is an island,”  Hemingway is eternally grateful for Donne’s, “For whom the bell tolls” line, and “Death be not proud,” with its in-your-face elegance, gives fullness to the lines of the Burial Rite: "And even at the grave, we make our song. Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia!"

6. He was a satirist, which means he was really snarky, but had huge audiences. In his satirical essays, he called out corrupt government and church practices, absurdities in certain faith beliefs (he was one of the early people to argue suicide was not a mortal sin), bad poets, and pompous courtiers. He blasted those who blindly followed established religious tradition without carefully examining one’s beliefs and questioning. He writes (translated into modern English), “You won’t be saved on the Day of Judgement by saying Harry or Martin told  you to believe this. God wants to know what YOU thought and believed.”

5. King James wanted him to become a priest so badly that he declared to all of England that Donne could not be hired except in the church. Seriously. So he was ordained in 1615 and soon became known as a great preacher in an age of great preachers, in an era of the Anglican church when preaching was a form of spiritual devotion, an intellectual exercise, and dramatic entertainment. I bet no one looked at his iPhone to check the time when Donne was throwing down the Gospel at St. Paul’s Cross.

4. He was eventually named Dean of St. Paul’s, the big time of the big time. He preached his own funeral sermon right before he died. Funeral. Preaching. Owned.

3. Just in case anyone had any ideas about how he should be remembered, he arranged a final portrait of himself not in pompous glory, but in his burial shroud.  Yes, a bit creepy, but he walked the walk and saw the beauty in death. Because guess what? Donne believed with every bit of his soul that the Resurrection wasn’t just a story, but it was Truth. His statue survived the 1666 fire at St. Paul’s and still watches over the place. Just in case any subsequent Deans think they are all that.

2. He wrote this:

Death, be not proud, though some have called thee
Mighty and dreadful, for thou art not so;
For those whom thou think’st thou dost overthrow
Die not, poor Death, nor yet canst thou kill me.
From rest and sleep, which but thy pictures be,
Much pleasure; then from thee much more must flow,
And soonest our best men with thee do go,
Rest of their bones, and soul’s delivery.
Thou art slave to fate, chance, kings, and desperate men,
And dost with poison, war, and sickness dwell,
And poppy or charms can make us sleep well
And better than thy stroke; why swell’s thou then?
One short sleep past, we wake eternally
And death shall be no more; Death, thou shalt die.

1. And this

The Flea

Mark but this flea, and mark in this,
How little that which thou deniest me is;
Me it sucked first, and now sucks thee,
And in this fela our two bloods mingled be;
Thou know’st that this cannot be said
A sin, or shame, or loss of maidenhead,
Yet this enjoys before it woo,
And pampered swells with one blood made of two,
And this, alas, is more than we would do.

Oh stay, three lives in one flea spare,
Where we almost, nay more than married are.
This flea is you and I, and this
Our marriage bed and marriage temple is;
Though parents grudge, and you, we are met,
And cloistered in these living walls of jet.
Though use make you apt to kill me
Let not to that, self-murder added be,
And sacrilege, three sins in killing three.

Cruel and sudden, hast thou since
Purpled thy nail in blood of innocence?
Wherein could this flea guilty be,
Except in that drop which is sucked from thee?
Yet thou triumph’st, and say’st that thou
Find’st not thy self nor me the weaker now;
‘Tis true; then learn how false fears be:
Just so much honor, when thou yield’st to me,
Will waste, as this flea’s death took life from thee.

John Donne was the first Rev. Dirty Sexy Ministry, and Dean of St. Paul’s. And he lived it loud and proud.

-- Laurie Brock

144px-T_S_Eliot_Simon_FieldhouseT. S. Eliot

10. T.S. Eliot (9/26/1888 - 1/4/1965) was a poet, playwright, literary critic, and editor. Like many of his generation, he was profoundly affected by World War I but he also became a convert to Anglicanism, to the surprise of literary friends and colleagues, resulting in his writing poetry and plays featuring distinctly Christian ideas set alongside themes of desolation and disconnection. He sought to explore traditional Christian themes while using modern forms and rhythms, speaking to and for a generation that had seen devastation like no other before it. The traditional meets the modern in Eliot’s works in which he models the maxim that the church must reinterpret scripture and doctrine for every generation.

9.  Among his poems are "The Love Song of Alfred J. Prufrock," "The Waste Land," "The Hollow Men," "Ash Wednesday," "Four Quartets," and "The Journey of the Magi;" most famous among his plays is "Murder in the Cathedral" (the story of the martyrdom of Thomas a Becket at Canterbury written entirely in verse).

8.  He won the Nobel Price in Literature in 1948 for his “outstanding, pioneer contribution to present-day poetry.” Prior to Eliot’s acceptance speech at the Nobel Banquet in Stockholm, Gustaf Hellstrom of the Swedish Academy said of him, “As a poet you have, Mr. Eliot, for decades, exercised a greater influence on your contemporaries and younger fellow writers than perhaps anyone else of our time.”

7.  Eliot’s collection of poems about the psychology and social habits of kitties - Old Possum’s Book of Practical Cats -  was the basis for the long running Broadway musical Cats by Andrew Lloyd Webber featuring Skimbleshanks the Railway Cat, Mr. Mistoffelees, Old Deuteronomy, and (Aspara)Gus the Theater Cat, et al. Sadly, the SEC says there are no cat videos at Lent Madness, or I’d link to one.

6. For all you coffee lovers out there, he included this famous line in The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock. “I have measured out my life with coffee spoons....” No doubt into his Lent Madness coffee mug, had he owned one.

5. More seriously, Eliot is considered a “supreme interpreter of mediated experience.” He himself said, “A poet must take as his material his own language as it is actually spoken around him.” A fine example comes from The Wasteland (Part I. Burial of the Dead): “I will show you fear in a handful of dust.”

4. And who among us does not love the ending of the The Journey of the Magi:

“We returned to our places, these
     Kingdoms,
But no longer at ease here, in the old
     dispensation,
With an alien people clutching their
     gods.
I should be glad of another death.”

3.  Eliot considered The Four Quartets to be his best work, and each of the quartets to be better than the one before. Ponder these lines from Four Quartets 4: Little Gidding 

“We only live, only suspire
     Consumed by either fire or fire.
....
We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.”

2.  Read again Eliot’s brilliant, sexy, and oft-quoted ending from The Hollow Men:

“Between the desire
And the spasm
Between the potency
And the existence
Between the essence
And the descent
Falls the Shadow
For Thine is the Kingdom

For Thine is
Life is
For Thine is the

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.”

1.  And finally, heed Eliot’s words from his play Murder in the Cathedral that explain why Sir Anthony Strallan should not marry Lady Edith - I mean, that explain why you should vote for Eliot to join the 2013 Lent Madness bracket of saints:

“Now is my way clear, now is the meaning plain:
Temptation shall not come in this kind again.
The last temptation is the greatest treason:
To do the right deed for the wrong reason.”

Vote!

[poll id="42"]

 

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92 comments on “Play-In: John Donne vs. T.S. Eliot”

  1. John Donne as my rector and senior warden threatened by nerd status if I voted for Eliot. I left them this morning looking up Donne hymns.

  2. I do like them both very much. But Eliot gets my vote.

    I said to my soul, be still, and let the dark come upon you
    Which shall be the darkness of God....

    So the darkness shall be the light, and the stillness the dancing.
    - from Four Quartets

  3. Hard to choose, when Donne's poem "Good Friday: Riding Westward" and Eliot's "Ash Wednesday" are both so totally appropriate for Lent Madness. But, having done my dissertation on TSE, he gets my vote!

  4. For me, it comes down to "Death Be Not Proud" vs. "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock."

    In which case I cast my vote for Eliot, any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.

  5. I was leaning towards Eliot, both as a convert to Anglo-Catholicism 😉 and because my pastor reads parts of "Journey of the Magi" during the Christmas season as part of his homily. But, I'm troubled by the way that he treated his first wife. Saints who contend for the Golden Halo should witness to the gospel by their lives as well as their verse!

    1. I think Eliot apologized for the way he treated Vivienne in "Little Gidding," where he writes of "things ill done and done to others' harm with once you took for exercise of virtue."

  6. Has to be Eliot for me. Who cannot love Old Possum - and the Journey of the Magi. Hope this is how to vote!

  7. Eliot all the way. As lit major at university, I did poorly in poetry because I never got the meanings my prof said were the correct meanings. Donne's poetry escaped me most, according to my prof. Then, in 1990, I sat two lectures with Rowan Williams at Oxford on Christian poetry after Auden. I was not going to go but I'd payed a lot of money for two weeks of lectures so I went prepared to endure. Suffice it to say Rowan said things about how the poet writes that freed me from the slavery of my professors at university. Starving, I went straight away to Blackwell's and bought Eliot's 4 Quartets just for the way the words felt on my brain. And the rest is history. So, Eliot it is.

    1. Zut Alors! Apparently it is also possible for different people to register the same user name, because that is my name but that is not my post. THIS Jennifer says "Eliot" (though with a whimper, now). And this Jennifer will henceforth change her name to Thomasina to honour her favourite poet and make way for the new person. Welcome, fellow Jennifer, despite your alarming tendency to vote the wrong way! But perhaps before LM gets going in earnest SEC could jig the system a titch to address the newly-identified identity theft potential?

      1. But my dear fellow Jennifer, aren't you used to the fact that there are 20 MILLION of us? Is my new name better for you? Happy Monday and sincere condolences for your T.S.

  8. I was going to vote for Eliot, but then the bio reminded me that he was responsible for CATS... sorry, can't forgive that. Donne gets my vote!

  9. Okay. This is getting too close for comfort. Donne is the man, here. He is the human being who concerned himself with this world and how we live in it and how we are in relationship with one another. That's what I want in my poet and priest and saint. Eliot pointed to God as a stillpoint in a turning world. That's not what I want in God - some distant God out there in the vast reaches of the interstellar. I want an incarnate God and Donne - all these years later - is still the guy who points me Eastward. (Typed this on my phone. There could be booboos.)

  10. It's fun to read people's comments. I wish we had the ability to "like" them. Maybe next year the guru-ick arch-nemesi will add that feature. In the meantime, I "like" all the comments.

  11. Eliot carried on a correspondence with Groucho Marx. When they finally met, each had boned up on the other's work--Groucho on poetry, Eliot on movies. Then they discovered that they both loved cats and cigars, so they had a good time. I can't imagine Donne having anything to say to Groucho . . .

    1. Shirley, posting a comment won't cast your vote - you have to go back up to the end of the article where it says "John Donne Vs. T.S. Eliot", click the radio button next to Eliot's name, and click on the "Vote" button.

      (Apologies if you'd already figured that 0ut - I just wanted to make sure you weren't disenfranchised by confusing voting technology. 😉 )

  12. While the qwirkiness of Eliot is tempting, I must vote for Donne who gave permission to question doctrine ... oh and he's also a relative of mine! 🙂

  13. This is so, so hard--two of my most cherished poets. Had to go with Donne. "Batter my heart, three- personned God..."

  14. John Donne, although this probably means that I won't be Journeying to the Heaviside Layer.

  15. Donne's words always made sense to me; Eliot's words seemed uncomfortable and wandering in unhappiness. Modern angst, perhaps.
    Anyway, I vote for Donne.

  16. TS gets my vote, I feel his works were written for and to the common man. He
    wasn't living with kings or bishops; his writings weren't seen as great works
    during his life. His works are more uncomfortable with have more unhappiness
    in them. More people in our world live in these conditions today. Elliot brings
    us a view of this world so we won't forget the world of need around us!

  17. Therefore we thank Thee for our little light, that is dappled with shadow.
    We thank Thee who hast moved us to building, to finding, to forming at the ends of our fingers and beams of our eyes.
    And when we have built an altar to the Invisible Light, we may set thereon the little lights for which our bodily vision is made.
    And we thank Thee that darkness reminds us of light.
    O Light Invisible, we give Thee thanks for Thy great glory!

    From Choruses from The Rock – T.S. Eliot

  18. I just "have to say this" at the beginning of Lent Madness voting. There are so very few things we "have to do." I want to vote for__. I choose to vote for___. My arm is being twisted by a blogger to vote for___. If I'm sounding like a fusty old English professor who taught writing for 22 years, that's because I [have to say!!!!!] I am.

  19. Patsy, I join you in wishing for a "like" button! Such great comments and great fun! Looks like my guy went donne in defeat but it was a great contest! Must look into that West Virginia voting mechanism for the future!

  20. I'm fond of both, but Eliot's Four Quartets is one of the most moving works of Christian poetry. The Easter imagery is wonderful.

    "The wounded surgeon plies the steel
    That questions the distempered part;
    Beneath his bleeding hands we feel
    The sharp compassion of the healer's art
    Resolving the enigma of the fever chart."

  21. I didn't catch any mention of Elliot's admiration for the Metaphysical Poets-Donne chief amongst them.
    I believe they were known as Cavalier poets prior to Elliot. I further submit that Elliot would vote for Donne.
    Therefore, I vote for Donne.

  22. Couldn't quite vote on my computer for some reason, on either Feb 2 or 3. I trust there's no voting machine scheme afoot! My vote would've been for Donne...I hope he won!

  23. Have no fear, the SEC has heard the cries of the (new) Lent Madness faithful and has commissioned a Voting 101 video to be released in advance of Ash Thursday.